Bluff Park, Alabama Forum

Bluff Park, Alabama Forum
http://bluffparkal.org/bpforum/YaBB.pl
General Category >> General Board >> mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
http://bluffparkal.org/bpforum/YaBB.pl?num=1181616512

Message started by BluffParkwriter on 06/11/07 at 9:48pm

Title: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by BluffParkwriter on 06/11/07 at 9:48pm

Sulphur springs and al seier are just on the edge of Bluff Park

Hearing on Muslim worship center in Hoover postponed
Posted by Birmingham News staff June 11, 2007 12:49 PM

The Hoover Planning and Zoning Commission today postponed until July 9 consideration of a request to build a Muslim worship center at the intersection of Sulphur Springs Road and Al Seier Road.

The commission was to have considered the request tonight at 5:30, but city Zoning Clerk June Webb said a nearby resident called this morning to say she had not been notified about the request.

Hoover's zoning ordinance requires residents within 500 feet of a development to be notified for certain zoning requests. Some nearby residents oppose a church at this location, citing traffic concerns.

more: http://www.al.com/birminghamnews/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1181549954128210.xml&coll=2

contains more info on the developer and the hoover zoning commission
this could be a major traffic problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and if you are in this area and have not been notified you need to call them.
if you oppose you need to call the hoover planning and zoning commission.

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by bpresident on 06/13/07 at 10:49am

Link posted on the al.com Hoover forum:

http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/islamic_0.htm

It should be noted that the site leans extremely far to the right, so the article must be taken for what it is, biased. At the same time, though, being informed about things is our responsibility as residents, and the more we know, the better decisions we can make.

I had a conversation with my son, who is 16, about the proposed worship center as we were driving past the site, asking him what his thoughts were. He was against it. I asked him why? He said that it was wrong for them to build it here. I then said "So it's OK for you to have a church here, but it's not OK for the Muslims to have a mosque? Is that what you're saying?" He said basically, yes, that is what he was saying.

This type of thought process comes from a lack of knowledge. I'm not going to call my son ignorant, but his comments were not too far from it. Who's fault is that? Probably mine as a parent would be a good place to start. Lack of speaking on the subject of religious tolerance is nobody's fault but mine. But some of the blame can also be put on the local Muslim community and their lack of information. We speak bad of things we know little of. This comes from fear and ignorance.

If the Muslim community in Hoover would like to have a worship center, then please come out and explain to us what it will entail. Be public in what your worship styles are like. Don't place the responsibility on us to learn your culture and religion. All we have been exposed to when it comes to the Muslim faith has been, for a lack of a better term, negative. And, being in the so called Bible Belt, you have an extra burden to convince us that putting a worship center in Hoover is a good idea.

Most people in Bluff Park and Hoover, regardless of what John Archibald of the Birmingham News http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/jarchibald.ssf?/base/news/118163639174520.xml&coll=2may say, have grown out of the redneck, racist culture of the past. But events of the past 5+ years have taught us to be a little more "careful" as to who we allow into our backyard. If you don't come in with your hands where we can see them, figuratively speaking, we just might not let you in.

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by BluffParkwriter on 06/14/07 at 1:43pm

I read the article in your post and yes it is very "right" of center but I think you have to realize that this is a religion that preaches Kill, Convert or Subjugate. Not the religion of peace that the media wants you to think it is. There is good and evil in this world and right now Islamic groups cause a second look. To me there are two sides to this one being the traffic issue, I dont care what they would be putting there a mosque or a church or a store.. the road can not handle the traffic. The other side is that this raises an eyebrow about the security of citizens in Hoover. Has this group been checked out, homeland security anyone??? I know it seems bad but in a post 911 world you have to do that. It seems a little fishy to me.. they will not call it a mosque, I have seen it referred to as a "church" Islam does not have churches they have mosque. I have also seen it called a "worship center" in the paper and my the company wanting to develop the land. I would also like to know where they got the money.. a lot of terrorists groups were funneling money through mosques. Also the fact that some of the residents with in 500 feet were not notified according to the law when land around them is going to be re-zoned.

I like what you said bpresident:
" If the Muslim community in Hoover would like to have a worship center, then please come out and explain to us what it will entail. Be public in what your worship styles are like. Don't place the responsibility on us to learn your culture and religion. All we have been exposed to when it comes to the Muslim faith has been, for a lack of a better term, negative. And, being in the so called Bible Belt, you have an extra burden to convince us that putting a worship center in Hoover is a good idea."
.

could they not build this in an area already zoned for non residential.

I think you also have to ask the question, does this group denounce the injustices on women in sects of Islam, do they denounce suicide bombing.. etc

YOu got to ask a lot of questions when something like this happens

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by CoolSchool on 06/14/07 at 3:12pm

Well said bpresident. Concerns about traffic and whether the zoning procedures were followed are fine by any other questions are beyond the pale. We live in a country that values (or use to value) religious tolerance. The people that want to worship there do not have to expain Islam to everybodies satisfaction to have their worship center built.
Do we ask these kind of questions when the Baptists or Methodists want to build a church? Do we worry about Seventh Day Adventists? What about Mormoms, if they come into a community are we all afraid we will end up pologomists? What about the Catholics, they believe bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of Christ and then they consume it. Isn't that canabalism? Shouldn't we throw Prince of Peace church out of Bluff Park?
If terrorists want to try to attack Bluff Park they will, whether or not the worship center is there. Building it will not increase the terror threat in Bluff Park one iota. 8-)

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by bpresident on 06/14/07 at 3:53pm

CoolSchool:

I think what I said was:

bpresident wrote:

Link posted on the al.com Hoover forum:

If the Muslim community in Hoover would like to have a worship center, then please come out and explain to us what it will entail. Be public in what your worship styles are like. Don't place the responsibility on us to learn your culture and religion. All we have been exposed to when it comes to the Muslim faith has been, for a lack of a better term, negative. And, being in the so called Bible Belt, you have an extra burden to convince us that putting a worship center in Hoover is a good idea.

which I think is exactly the opposite of what you are saying, if I'm not mistaken. The people who want to build their center do have to explain what it's all about. We happen to know already what the Baptists, Methodists, Mormons, Catholics, etc. are all about. But we don't know what the Muslims are about, at least most of us don't. All we know is what we read in the papers and on the web and see on TV. And, I'm sorry to say, it's not good.

Religious tolerance was great in the 18th, 19th and 20th century, and it's still great today, but at a price. The price is full and open disclosure. The Baptists don't mind you coming to their church and asking all kinds of questions (we just might want to have you join our church while you're there...). The Catholics don't mind you asking about Communion. The Jews don't mind you dropping in during a Bar Mitzvah. So I'm sure our Muslim friends won't mind if we drop in and ask some questions either, right? But we might feel a little uncomfortable doing it, so the burden is on them, not us. We're asking for full disclosure, that's all. You want to come to our neighborhood, we don't mind. But don't come in cloaked in secrecy because chances are it's not going to go over too well.

No, sorry, CoolSchool, but you must have me confused with someone else. And your are taking an act of symbolism (the body and blood of Christ) and turning it into something that it is not (comparing it to canabalism) or saying that Mormons are going to turn us into polygamists. Invalid examples. And making the statement that if terrorists are going to attack us, they will regardless of what we do? Maybe. But we sure won't just open the door and let them in without asking a couple of questions first. You don't let just anyone who knocks on your front door into your house, do you?

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by CoolSchool on 06/14/07 at 4:32pm

Oh where to begin!
First, if you think Catholics believe the bread and wine are a symbol of the body and blood of Christ you are incorrect. They believe the bread and wine are literally changed into the body and blood of Christ. My tongue was firmly in my check when I called them canibals but others have called it canabalism. That was my point, we allow other faiths to build churches and many of us don't really have a complete or accurate idea of what they believe. Did you know some Christians believe our republic should be done away with and replaced with a theocracy? That sounds pretty dangerous to me but if such a group wants to open a worship center in Bluff Park I don't believe I have the right to stop them because of their beliefs. Why are we holding Islam to a highere standard? 8-)

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by bpresident on 06/14/07 at 5:49pm

CoolSchool I don't believe I have the right to stop them because of their beliefs. Why are we holding Islam to a highere standard?

We are holding them to a higher standard because they have commited acts that fall outside of the norm, or at least what a reasonable person perceives to be the norm.

If you will go back to my original post, you will see that I am the first to say that ignorance on my part plays a role. I am not disputing that. But caution on my part also plays a role.

Here's where you and I differ: You are playing into the role of being politically correct. You do not believe that one should get down on others based on their beliefs. I'm tired of playing the PC game.

Let me give you an example. Lets say that the site was planning to open a church instead of a Muslim worship center (and by the way, why can't they just call it a mosque, instead of a "worship center"). And lets say that the church was going to be a "Baptist" church. Would you let them build it without asking further questions? I hope you didn't answer yes. Lets say that the name of the church was "Westboro Baptist Church". Would you still let them build? I hope you didn't answer yes. Lets say the pastor's name is Fred Phelps. Would you still let them build? Do you see what I'm getting at? We need to ask questions. Just because they call themselves something (like Fred Phelps calls himself a "Baptist" "church"), doesn't mean that we as responsible citizens don't need to investigate. Especially these days.

This applies to protestant, Jews and Muslims. Especially Muslims. Not too many "good" things have been written about them in the press lately. Most of it has been, shall we say, on the negative end. If they would like to have a meeting and disclose what they propose to do in their worship center, I say "Come on!".

Please take a minute to rent a video from the library entitled "Obsession: The Threat of Radical Islam". It talks all about these local worship centers that seem to have an alterior motive. If I'm so wrong, why can we not have a representative from their group give their side - that's all we are asking. Nothing else. Enlighten us! Look, we've opened our arms to others who are different. Even so called "illegals" are welcomed around here. OK, "welcomed" may be too generous of a term. Lets go with "tolerated". But they have spokespeople that are speaking up for them. Why doesn't the Muslim community? Educate us. We want to learn. Or could it be that we're not wrong?

Call me ignorant. I'll agree with you on that. I am ignorant on the Muslim faith. But I'm also a quick learner. And a willing one. I'm sure that they plan on opening up a good center. But call it what it is. Don't sugarcoat it by calling it a "worship center" when it's nothing but a mosque. That shows deceipt from the start. But just like I wouldn't let Fred Phelps open up a "Baptist" "church" in Bluff Park, I'm going to find out what they are planning to build. And I hope you would be curious also.

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by Forolemiss on 06/18/07 at 9:16am

In response to CoolSchool:

Do we ask these kind of questions when the Baptists or Methodists want to build a church? Do we worry about Seventh Day Adventists? What about Mormoms, if they come into a community are we all afraid we will end up pologomists? What about the Catholics, they believe bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of Christ and then they consume it. Isn't that canabalism? Shouldn't we throw Prince of Peace church out of Bluff Park?

The last I checked the Mormons and Catholics were trying to kill us. It is nice that you are trying to have an “Open Arms” view of this situation, but the Muslim religion is one of the most intolerant religions on this planet. They kill each over simple little nuances in the religion (Sunni vs. Shiite), they treat women like second class citizens (have to wear head scarves and worship separately), and they have no regard for human life. If you have to blame it on “Traffic Problems” that’s great, but I don’t want them in my community.

Oh, I know you are going to bring up the fact that IRA Irish Catholics killed Protestants in the name of God, but that was really secular (Really Great Britain (Northern Ireland) vs. the Republic of Ireland).

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by BluffParkwriter on 06/20/07 at 6:28pm

Here is more info that was in the paper today.
Some key notes.. I still dont see where this is good for Hoover. As said before, this is land zoned f for retail or office use. The city would take a loss in tax dollars if anything other than retail went in. Why should this land be re zoned (for anyone!!!!!) Still a traffic issue. Still an issue of trust with the Islamic Society. I would like to know what group the bus bombers from London were affiliated with. The article says "Ismailis live in the Middle East, Asia, Africa, Europe and North America, according to the Web site of the Institute of Ismaili Studies, which is based in London." I wonder if they made any denouncements after the bus bombing. Much to look into.

I also have to say that I have been watching the conversation here and on the al.com hoover forum and according to the paper only 2 letters/calls received?? I guess one was mine. IF you are voicing opposition here or anywhere else.. you should voice it to the zoning board and the hoover commission and mayor's office.

With Councilman Mike Natter mentioned in the article as being undecided I think he would be a good person to call.

http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/hoover.ssf?/base/community/1182327672108560.xml&coll=2

July 9th is the mtg

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by CoolSchool on 06/21/07 at 8:42am

BPW you asked, "Why should this land be rezoned (for anyone).
The following is a quote from the News article you linked to.
"The property is zoned for retail or office use. Use of the property for any other purpose requires approval by the commission and the council under what is called a conditional use.

All churches are approved under conditional use because there is no zoning district for churches
"

If the reporter is summarzing Hoover's zoning laws correctly any church wanting to build in Hoover would have to have land rezoned. Since you are opposed to rezoning land for anyone is it your position no additional churches should be built in Hoover? 8-)

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by BluffParkwriter on 06/21/07 at 10:14am

"The property is zoned for retail or office use. Use of the property for any other purpose requires approval by the commission and the council under what is called a[color=#009900] conditional use.

All churches are approved under conditional use because there is no zoning district for churches. "[/color]

Conditional being the key word here.
No I am not against new "Churches" in Hoover, I am against this mosque at this site. They could go somewhere else that is not zoned for retail and has better access. Also noting that the guy in the article said that most members did not live in Hoover (the city) so why do they want it here???????

on a side note, this is a special that PBS would not air, Fox is now airing it read on http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,285695,00.html

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by bpresident on 06/25/07 at 10:54pm

Interesting article in the Birmingham News regarding the worship center:

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2007/06/crowd_turns_out_to_oppose_hoov.html

Here's what's more interesting, from the article:

On Friday, the Hoover Planning and Zoning Commission postponed until Aug. 13 its consideration of the project. The commission, which meets the second Monday each month, had been scheduled to consider the proposal on July 9.

So it has been rescheduled from early June to July 9 to August 13, which means that the next date should be September 17. By the time they are done rescheduling this meeting, the people interested in getting the zoning approved may have lost interest. Hmm...

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by fitgrl on 06/26/07 at 8:41am

Or the people interested in fighting it will have lost interest. Fires die down quickly.

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by BluffParkwriter on 06/26/07 at 3:16pm

THis is the text from the link above. We need to keep on top of this and make the Aug. 13th meeting.

About 150 people filled the lunchroom Monday night at Gwin Elementary School at a meeting organized by opponents of a Muslim worship center in Hoover.

Residents from several neighborhoods near the 4.7-acre site at the intersection of Sulphur Springs and Al Seier roads said they oppose the project because of the traffic it would bring.

Lee Strickland, who lives in the Village at Highland Crest, said hundreds of new houses already planned in the area will cause traffic congestion that a church would make worse.

"You've got a traffic problem you can't resolve if you just keep adding to it," Strickland said.

No one at the hour-long meeting spoke in favor of the worship center.

On Friday, the Hoover Planning and Zoning Commission postponed until Aug. 13 its consideration of the project. The commission, which meets the second Monday each month, had been scheduled to consider the proposal on July 9.

For complete details, see Tuesday's Birmingham News

Mike Cason

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by Bluff Park Forum Admin on 07/04/07 at 8:59am

Article in July 4, 2007 Birmingham News:
http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/hoover.ssf?/base/community/118353759545590.xml&coll=2

Title: Re: more research
Post by BluffParkwriter on 07/09/07 at 6:27pm

"statement made by Omar Ahmad, Chairman Emeritus of CAIR, that "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

through more research I thought this might be interesting for people to read.
http://boortz.com/nuze/200707/07052007.html

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by BluffParkwriter on 07/10/07 at 9:47am

New Mall comments have been moved to This Thread (http://bluffparkal.org/bpforum/YaBB.pl?num=1184078853)

please go to it for more commentary

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by Forolemiss on 07/10/07 at 4:26pm

It appears that our Ismailis brethren are the world’s first terrorist! The word “Assassin” comes from their ancient day suicide military wing, the The Hashashin. Death and suicide seem to be very prevalent in their society!!!!

Taken from Wikipedia:

Surrounded by the Abbasids and other hostile powers, and low in numbers, Hassan-i-Sabbah derived a way to attack the Ismaili enemies with a small loss and number. Using the method of assassination, from which the English word is derived from Hashashin, he ordered the killing of Sunni scholars and politicians that threatened the Ismailis. Knives and daggers were used. Sometimes in warning, a knife would be put into the pillow of the enemy, and often they understood the message.

However, when an assassination was actually made, the Hashashin would not be allowed to run away, but rather to strike further fear in the enemy by showing no emotion, they would stand there. This further increased the reputation of the Hashashin in the Sunni world.

Now that is scary!!!

Title: residents speak out
Post by BluffParkwriter on 07/11/07 at 2:53pm

" I believe all faiths should have a place to worship, and I do not think we should prevent the Muslim faith from having a place to worship. But given Muslims' propensity for violence toward those who do not believe as they do and the sounds that emanate from their worship centers, I do not believe they should own property in a quiet neighborhood.

No matter on what side of the issue you may find yourself, I would like to challenge each person to attend the meeting on Aug. 13 at 5:30 p.m. in the Hoover Municipal Building. "

http://www.al.com/opinion/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1184143892294250.xml&coll=2

good editorial by a Hoover resident on his feelings of why Hoover does not need this.

AND DONT FORGET THE AUG 13TH MTG

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by BluffParkwriter on 07/29/07 at 5:59pm

stand by!
I have heard that there will be a mtg held by the group wanting to build the mosque and the residents who dont want it BEFORE the planning and zoning mtg on the 13th.

Date: tues July 31
TIme :
Place:

if anyone has more info on this please post it. I am researching it

stand by

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by bpresident on 07/30/07 at 6:38am

BluffParkwriter wrote:

The meeting is on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 at 7:30 pm at Prince of Peace Church

Story on the meeting is here: http://www.nbc13.com/gulfcoastwest/vtm/news.apx.-content-articles-VTM-2007-07-29-0006.html

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by BluffParkwriter on 07/31/07 at 4:19pm

a repersentive of group that wansts to build
is on the Matt Murphy Show right now on 850am
THe quote that stood out to me was that he hoped that hoover and the residents of hoover would follow the law........... ??????????????????????????????

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by bpresident on 07/31/07 at 9:36pm

I attended the meeting tonight. I'll have a full report tomorrow, after the media has their say. The report will be on the main site, but we'll have a link from here.

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by bpresident on 08/01/07 at 3:57pm

On Tuesday, July 31, 2007, the Muslim group wishing to build a worship center on the property located on Sulphur Springs Road called a meeting at Prince of Peach Catholic Church. The meeting was scheduled for 7:30 pm and was by invitation, however anyone was welcome to attend, except for the media.

The meeting took place in PoP Fellowship Hall. Although I did not have an invitation, I asked if I could sit in and was granted access. A table was setup in the foyer with pre-printed name tags and people taking names of those not registered.

Seating was for about 100 people and most seats were taken up. The television media, although not allowed in during the actual discussion, was allowed to take shots of the crowd. The print media was allowed to stay. The front of the room had a screen and a projector which was hooked up to a laptop. The back of the room had a table with various literature about the denomination being represented on one side and a large table with catered food on the other side.

The meeting began at exactly 7:30 pm with an introduction by Dr. Mansoor Saleh, who is an oncologist at UAB and member of the Birmingham chapter of Ismailis. Dr. Saleh introduced a DVD which described their particular denomination, Ismaili Muslims, their background and what their proposed worship center would look like. The worship center is called a jamatkhana. The DVD also showed various placed around the United States, and the world, that already had a Ismaili jamatkhanas. What struck me as interesting was the fact that all of their buildings were built to match the architecture of the surrounding neighborhood. Dr. Saleh emphasized how the Ismaili’s goal was their buildings to blend in.

The meeting concluded with a Q & A session. Dr. Saleh stated before the meeting that the traffic issue would not be addressed this evening since the City of Hoover was doing their own traffic study and that would be presented at the August 13 meeting. One resident asked some very good questions regarding how many members would attend and when services would be. Services run seven days a week, once in the morning from between 4 am and 5:30 am, which last 90 minutes, and once in the evening after 7:30 pm. The major service day was on Fridays, in which most families came out. The proposed center will have 200 parking spaces so the anticipated membership is expected to be 600-800. Once the membership outgrows the center, the lease is not renewed and a new location is sought out. The Ismaili’s do not own the worship center. They lease it from the builder.

The impression that I had after the meeting is that this group is doing their best to be accepted by their potential new community. The covered all the bases, with the exception of the traffic issue, which is still being studied. It does not appear that their worship center will be a disruption to the community where it is being built. According to Dr. Saleh, their goal is to blend in to their adopted community.

I’ll repeat what I stated after the meeting: Based upon what I heard at the meeting, I believe they would be a fine addition to the Hoover community.

Liz Ellaby, Birmingham News Reporter, has an article covering other issues: http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/metro.ssf?/base/news/118595700037800.xml&coll=2

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by PharmD on 08/01/07 at 9:52pm

So when they outgrow the builing then what...is there a projection on when they expect to reach maximum occupancy? If there is already discussion about outgrowing the site, why not consider a larger site that could sustain the congregation and its growth longer?? Also, I would be interested to know if the leaders of this meeting mentioned any data on how many Ismaili Muslims actually reside in the area. Is there a demand for this in the area or will many members be driving in from surrounding areas?

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by BluffParkwriter on 08/02/07 at 12:36am

It was quoted in an article here: http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/hoover.ssf?/base/community/1182327672108560.xml&coll=2

"About one-third of the members live outside the metro area, Seleh said."

I still have to wonder why they want it in the middle of a residential neighborhood.. it would be different if it was on 150 or elsewhere. It concerns me that they would not let the tv media record the mtg, I have not heard a reason yet for that.

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by bpresident on 08/02/07 at 11:36am

PharmD wrote:

First question was asked and answered at the meeting: When they outgrow their building, they find another location to move to, terminate the lease and move. Building does not belong to them, so it can be leased/sold to someone else. Building is architectually like the other buildings in the area, so it can be used for other businesses/churches/etc.

Second question, regarding already outgrowing site: Was not asked, so no answer can be given, however, the indication was that they were only at half capacity. The feeling I got was that they were not going to grow very much.

Third and fourth questions, regarding membership residence, answered by BluffParkWriter

Title: Re: mosque in hoover BP residents need to read
Post by bpresident on 09/13/07 at 9:03pm

And so ends the saga of the Muslim Worship Center on Sulphur Springs Road:

http://www.nbc13.com/gulfcoastwest/vtm/news.apx.-content-articles-VTM-2007-09-13-0019.html

They will now be looking for a new location.